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Historic Pres Comm Minutes 2006-06-16

City of Gardiner
Historic Preservation Commission

      6 Church St.                                                                                                        Telephone 207-582-6892
      Gardiner, Me. 04345                                                                                           Fax             207-582-6895


May 16, 2006
Gardiner City Hall, Council Chambers

Present:        Clarence McKay, Chair           Gail Ham                Kirk Mohney                                     Geri Robbins-Doyle                                                               

Absent: Mike Giberson                   Derrick Grant, Alternate                                                        Victor Tessari, Alternate
Also Present:   David Cichowski, Code Enforcement Officer
       Francis Grey – Recording Secretary
Brian Curley,  Applicant
1.)     Call Meeting to Order
Clarence McKay called the meeting to order at 6:04 PM

2.)     Roll Call
Roll call was taken.
Consideration of March 22, 2006 Minutes

Kirk Mohney moved to accept the minutes.  Geri Robbins-Doyle seconded the motion.  
Kirk Mohney asked that a change be made under item #4 on page #2 of the minutes.  Where it reads “Kirk Mohney said, they are pretty thick,” amend to read, “Kirk Mohney said, the muntins are pretty thick.”
Vote: 4 in favor. 0 opposed. Motion passed.


4.)     Consideration of a Certificate of Appropriateness from Gardiner Savings Institution, FSB, Brian Curley, PDT Architects, Applicant
        Proposal: To renovate existing building for use as an office building.  Proposed improvements include new second floor handicap accessible entry, elevator (with roof top overrun), new core and common spaces, as well as new HVAC mechanical units to be located on the roof.
        Location: 288 Water Street, City Tax Map 34, Lot 108
        Land Use Ordinance Reference: Section 9, Article F.

        Brian Curley said, I think you all remember this building from before when I came before you for the Yankee Title entry, and that got built, you probably have seen.  The contractor has done a pretty good job matching what we talked about.  We’re excited about that.  Now Gardiner Savings is looking at the second and third floors.  When they bought the building, they were apartments.  There are six apartments in that building now which are in various states of disrepair.  Yankee Title used the second floor for a while.  When the mortgage industry increased, they “camped out” in the second floor of that building.  So it’s kind of in transition as far as the interior of the building itself.  The bottom line is, it’s space that the bank would like to use as an office building, but to make it truly an office building there’s a couple things that in their mind have to happen.  The first thing is to get handicap accessibility through the building so it can serve the customers as well as employees, so that would mean an elevator.  What we’ve been talking about is introducing a new entry off the back side.  The building is basically a masonry building that has party walls.  It’s basically broken up into four sections.  There’s brick party walls that run up between the building so that the building is segmented into four individual slots.   Through time, on this first floor, that has changed.  Some of these party walls have been removed or holes been put in, headers been put across, so you end up with big open spaces like this.  Basically the center party wall has been removed.  There’s a beam overhead that picks up all that masonry and spans across so you can get some open office space.  Yankee Title uses this space now, and this is the entry that we talked about before.  What we’re proposing is to introduce an elevator that is located behind that first chimney.  You come in off the second floor at grade into a higher lobby area, and you ramp down to the true second floor, and the elevator access is off of that.  That’s how you get handicap accessibility for this building from parking which would be at the back as well as all the way through.  It kind of works out well on all floors.  It empties out into a good spot on the first floor and the same thing on the third floor.  We’re also introducing some stairs.  We’re taking out a lot of the residential stairs that are there that wouldn’t meet code and we’re putting in two new stairs for the fire egress requirements for the third floor.  
        Clarence McKay said, is what you call the first floor the ground level on the main street?
        Brian Curley said, yes.  For office space, they’d like to have air conditioning to moderate the temperature, and the elevator, and the entry.  Those are the three things that I’m bringing before you today to talk about.  This is the proposed new entry.  It’s similar as far as vocabulary to what we did downstairs: White wood painted, pin letters, flat roof, basically a porch entry.  It takes out one of the windows and turns it into a door.  What you see there is the elevator overrun, brick, and you’ve got some mechanical units on the roof.  That’s what we’re proposing.  
        David Cichowski said, it looks to me like there is already a door on the right.  Am I mistaken?
        Brian Curley said, that’s it.  That is a door.  But what we’re doing is raising the door.  We’re getting rid of the transom and moving it up so we get handicap accessibility.
        Brian Curley distributed updated handouts.  Brian Curley said, in my mind there are two things, visually.  There’s the entry—it seems appropriate to me, it is a door right now, we’re keeping it as a door, we’re just raising the sill and making it work for handicap.  The elevator makes sense to me because it’s placed tight to the party wall behind the chimney.  Adjacent to it is a mechanical unit and you’ve got three other mechanical units.  I know visually, folks don’t like mechanical units because they stick out on the roof, but if you drive around Gardiner there is a lot of mechanical stuff up on the roofs.  
        Clarence McKay said, what is the size of those?
        Brian Curley said, I’m working with Augusta Fuel, and they are saying that they are five ton units so they each have a fourteen inch curve and they are about three foot high, so its roughly a little over four feet.  They’re square, roughly four by four.  
        Clarence McKay said, how far back or where are they?  It looks like they might be in the middle of the building?  
        Brian Curley said, exactly.  I’m trying to hit the party walls  so they are in the middle of the building so we’re between the runs, so it simplifies the runs.  I’m really only air conditioning the second and the third floors.  We’ve already air conditioned the first floor.  
        Clarence McKay said, where is their unit?
        Brian Curley said, it’s sort of underground.  This building is unusual.  That back side was really an alleyway.  Underneath there is underground space.  What you would think is outside, is actually the roof of a room below there.  
        To put it inside doesn’t make sense mechanically.  It makes sense for the first floor to be there because the unit is right there adjacent to the space.  But for me to repeat the same idea, I’d have these really bizarre duct rooms.  Mechanically it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to keep it inside.  This makes sense from an energy-efficient use kind of way.  We’re talking about packaged air conditioning units that are gas-fired.  There’s no gas in Gardiner, so we’d have to get a tank.  It would have to either go inside or underground.  There are fire code issues with that.  
        Clarence McKay said, if it doesn’t go underground and it doesn’t go in that building, where will you put it?
Brian Curley said, if you look at the building in plan, it kind of tells you that it should go here, because there’s a boiler here and then this is underutilized space, there’s nothing here, so another idea is to take that building and make it smaller and make that sort of an outside service yard.   Those are my options with the tank.  I can do it outside, bury it underground, or put it somehow in here.  In this location, there’s not a lot of options for the tank.  
Kirk Mohney said, you said there are four of those units?  Where is the fourth one?
Brian Curley said, behind the elevator.
Kirk Mohney said, do you have an elevation view of that side showing that?  Because there are two chimneys on that side, right?  
Brian Curley said, right, so that would be in front of that one.  I didn’t swing it around and go to the other side.  It’s in the middle of a plane, if you look at the plans.
Kirk Mohney said, do either of your plans show the chimneys?   Is the overrun right up against that chimney or is there some space?  
Brian Curley said, I’m trying to keep that elevator tight to that chimney, because it makes sense on this floor because there’s a window up on the third floor, so I don’t want to crowd out that window.  
Kirk Mohney said, they’re actually in the plane or in the line of where the fourth one would be.  
Brian Curley said, they’re all lined up.
Clarence McKay said, this photograph was taken from up on the hill.  You’re looking straight across.
Brian Curley said, we did that on purpose.  This in my mind is the worst case scenario.  When you go down lower, you don’t experience them.  They’re really clipped off.  
Clarence McKay said, the top of the elevator section, we’d be seeing that.
Brian Curley said, yes, you would.
Kirk Mohney said, what’s the height of that overrun?
Brian Curley said, about five above the roof.  I have to go up at least twelve foot three to the underside of the beam and then I have structure above that, so it’s safe to say about five.  
Kirk Mohney said, but in relation to those units, its about a foot higher.  And then its five by eight?
Brian Curley said, five high, and then it’s at least eight by eight.  
Kirk Mohney said, and these mechanical units are four by four.
Brian Curley said, this is rough sizing from Augusta Fuel.  I feel like I’m conservative.  If anything, I’ve gone bigger than what I will actually be.  
        Clarence McKay said, are those metal?
        Brian Curley said, they are painted metal.  The standard is gray.  That’s why I’ve rendered them as gray.  At first I thought, that sticks out like a sore thumb, but it kind of runs into the sky.   Part of this conversation is to go out and look in Gardiner and see what is up on the roofs.  You’ll see a lot of these.  Air conditioning units or satellite dishes, there’s all sorts of stuff up on people’s roofs.  One of the things is to try to do it in a way that’s least offensive, and I think that this is the best way I can do it.
        Kirk Mohney said, the alternative being, if you had a single unit that was mounted in the back somewhere.  What are the options besides the roof?  You were talking about them before and you said you would have to run some weird mechanical ducts.  They’d all be inside.  You wouldn’t have an exterior placed big unit.
        Brian Curley said, why it works down here is because we have louvers on that side of the building, so I need exterior air.  There’s a code that requires that we have a certain amount of outside air brought into the building for quality of life.  On  the first floor it worked out fine because we had on the park side some louvers we could punch through and take advantage of.  Here it’s not so easy.
        Kirk Mohney said, if you didn’t have them on the roof, that would force you to add some louvers to the back of the building.
        Brian Curley said, the other thing is, it’s a cost thing relative to the units themselves.  This makes the most sense from a budgetary perspective.  It works better and it’s lower cost, first cost and operating cost.  To me it makes a lot of sense.
        Kirk Mohney said, are there options as far as color?  I understand your point that if you’re on the street looking up, what bit of it you might see is gray against the sky, but most times when you’re going to see them is this perspective coming down Church Street or from the parking lot out here looking across.  So I don’t know if a different color would help them blend into the roof.  You won’t see them from Water Street.
        Brian Curley said, no there is no way you would see them from Water Street.  And I was trying to think, are there other buildings around there where it would mess up views, and I don’t see where it would bother people.
        Kirk Mohney said, it changes the character somewhat of the flat roof, especially with so many.  I was thinking the elevator overrun is one thing, and tucked to the side, but when you have four of those marching across there…
        Brian Curley said, again, I was being conservative.  Maybe I can tighten it up and try to do two.  
        Kirk Mohney said, two, but they’d be larger.  It’s a trade-off.  Hopefully each one might be smaller.
        Clarence McKay said, are there other manufacturers of such things that might be smaller?
        Brian Curley said, I can work with them on that and try to bring it down.  I showed what was provided by the factory for color, but certainly we can field paint, or come up with another color if that’s objectionable.  We’re not too hung up on the color.
        Gail Ham said, do you need both of the doors for fire code that are in addition to the door that you’re going through?  Because there are two additional doors.
        Brian Curley said, those doors exist, so I was just keeping what was there.  If you look at the floor plan, it’s a really small floor plan.  The existing building has masonry bearing walls, it doesn’t make sense as an office.  The building doesn’t make sense, but we’re using what we have.  The party walls run through, and you’ve got windows along this other side, there are work stations along the sides, so to use this corner as an air intake, I’d have to take it up with duct work and block off the view.  It creates a whole bunch of issues for us.  Not insurmountable, but it’s basically a problem of an airway in a relatively narrow space.  If I were to think about outside air, I’m really not sure where would be a good spot.  
        Geri Robbins-Doyle said, are there any windows on this side of the building?
        Brian Curley said, there’s that one window on the third floor.  Actually there’s two, one here and one here, on the third floor, that overlook that roof.
        Kirk Mohney said, that elevation is somewhat visible from Water Street.  I’m very encouraged, and I’m pleased to see that you’ve maintained all of the openings in the back.  When I looked at your sketch plan it looked like you were modifying things, but I’m pleased to see you’re maintaining those openings.  The way in which the floor levels work with that grade in the back, you don’t have to do any ramping.  It’s very fortunate it works that way.
        Brian Curley said, it seems elegant and easy.  And I like the fact that we’re re-using that door.  Take out the transom and re-use that opening.  It seems simple.
        Clarence McKay said, how about the brick work around the elevator above the roof?  That’ll match the color on the building itself?
        Brian Curley said, yes.  I got to know a lot about masonry in Gardiner, so I can find the right match.  
        Clarence McKay said, that elevator is inside the building, so that end wall won’t show except what’s above the roof.  Is that correct?
        Brian Curley said, when we look at this end of the building, we’ll see the elevator overrun and it’ll be inboard.  It’ll be pushed back.
        Clarence McKay said, it won’t affect the out side wall.
        Brian Curley said, it won’t affect the outside wall, but it’ll be up on the roof.  The brick will continue.  It’ll break at the cornice and it’ll continue up for five feet.  If we were going to do an elevation of that, you’d see the chimneys, the thin lower wall, and next to that one chimney you’d see that elevator overrun.
        Kirk Mohney said, are those chimneys inboard as well, or do they come up flush with that exterior wall?
        Brian Curley said, they do something funny.  They corbel out slightly and then they go up.  It does it on both sides.  So you get this funny corbeling out.
        Kirk Mohney said, so that’ll be a distinct plane from where the elevator overruns.
        Brian Curley said, definitely.  It makes it the dominant thing.  The chimneys become the real dominant thing at the roof plane, which I think is really nice.  That was one thing I really loved about the other side, the park elevation.
        Gail Ham said, is that panel still there?
        Brian Curley said, the electrical service?  Gardiner Savings worked hard to try to get rid of that, but it couldn’t.
        Kirk Mohney said, will you be replacing all the windows that are there now?  Those are replacement windows.
        Brian Curley said, they’re going to leave the windows.  They’re not great quality.  I might get to window replacement on this job, but they didn’t ask me to do that yet.  I think they inherited that.  I will repair what’s there.  I’ll fix the broken glass in that pane and the pane on the other side.  
        Kirk Mohney said, on the design of the canopy entrance, is the side of that tapered, or is it just the perspective?   
        Brian Curley said, that’s just the perspective.  It’s flat.
        Kirk Mohney, and this doesn’t have any articulation as far as moulding profile?
        Brian Curley said, it could.  It doesn’t right now.  It’s very simple.
        Kirk Mohney said, it seems to be very heavy.  I don’t think it’s inconsistent with the standards, given it’s a new entrance at this elevation.
        Brian Curley said, it was thinner before.  It’s trying to do two things: get lighting on there and a sign on there.  So it got fatter once the lighting got incorporated and we couldn’t find the right fixture to fit in there.  We’re trying to find the right fixture to work with the signage.  I’m with you on that, Kirk.  I think it could be played with a little bit.
        Kirk Mohney said, it would be nice if you could fix the proportion and then work with the lighting.  I wouldn’t want the lighting to drive the proportion!
        Clarence McKay said, what is that panel that goes across there?
        Brian Curley said, it’s painted Medium Density Overlay plywood, like the lower entry.
        Clarence McKay said, is that eighteen inches, or two feet?
        Brian Curley said, probably less than that.  It’s probably fourteen.
        Clarence McKay said, as far as the white part going down, because you have a roof that overhangs.
        Brian Curley said, I have a flashing that comes around.  I think you are right, I could work on portions of that a little more, make it a little less chunky.
        Clarence McKay said, that railing, is that going to be metal or wood?
        Brian Curley said, it’s wood.  There are these low walls that are there now and I’m kind of playing off of those.  It’ a good way to contain snow and ice, protecting the surfaces that way, so the railing is mounted on top of that.
        Geri Robbins-Doyle said, is this a layer of brick work right here, is that what you’re talking about?
        Brian Curley said, yes, that’s a low wall.  I’m going to keep that, and then I’m going to bring that around.  The existing brick work is not in the greatest condition, so I’m looking to fix it.  
        Gail Ham said, so although it shows more concretey here, it’s going to be brick?
        Brian Curley said, yes, it’s really brick.
        Clarence McKay said, will that be a red brick?
Brian Curley said, yes, it’ll be the same.  Right now it has a lot of problems with water getting in there.  The good thing is, it’ll have a masonry base, and that’ll protect it.
Clarence McKay said, behind that proposed shrubbery is a drop-off?
Brian Curley said, it drops down, and that’s because historically there was an alleyway back there, and there’s actually space below that that’s mechanical space.  It looks outside, but it really isn’t.  It’s the roof of an underground room.  We’re going to put pavers down there.  It’s really an employee place to sit out.
David Cichowski said, it’s kind of self-contained now?  You can’t get out anywhere else, but you can just go out the door and be in this terrace?
Brian Curley said, and there’s steps at the other end to go up to the parking area.
David Cichowski said, so you can walk out the door and go out.
Gail Ham said, it looks like you’ve changed the doors.  Are the doors going to be different?
Brian Curley said, yes, because I didn’t think the doors were appropriate.  They didn’t match and it seemed like they were replacement doors.  So I was going to replace all three of the doors.
Gail Ham said, so they’ll be all open glass?
Brian Curley said, one’s painted red and the other are painted white.  Like we see downstairs in that entry, that same level of finish.
Gail Ham said, they’re not planning anything or it’s still open for that little gray building that’s behind it?
Brian Curley said, I just got word about that tank thing, and I have to settle that first.  I need to work with David on the fire separation and all that stuff.
David Cichowski said, what’s in that building now?
Brian Curley said, a boiler room and access to this underground room.  There was a laundry.
Clarence McKay said, is there one heating plant for that whole operation?
Brian Curley said, there is a boiler which was oversized because it served all of the apartments so it has many many zones.  Then it has this underground mechanical system which uses outside air for the adjacent.  The oil tanks are in the basement in a separate room.  
David Cichowski said, there’s a full six feet below where Yankee Title has their main office underground?
Brian Curley said, yes.  
Kirk Mohney said, I don’t have any more questions, but there are several issues that need some more work and investigation from your end, Brian.  I’m comfortable in giving a general nod to the project, but I don’t know that I’m ready to approve any proposal at this point because it seems to me what I have for primary issues are options to minimize the size of the a/c units and possible color options for them.  
Brian Curley said, what would you like to see as far as color there?
Kirk Mohney said, my initial thought is to do something close to the roof colors.  Something dark.  I don’t know if that’s what’s least obtrusive.  
Clarence McKay said, what color are they now, gray?  Will they blend in with the sky whether it’s a blue sky or a cloudy day?
Geri Robbins-Doyle said, when you see some of these chimneys that are dark, they stick out really sore.
Kirk Mohney said, but in those cases you’re seeing them involved in the roof line, whereas most often you’ll see the roof of this building coming down Church Street.
David Cichowski said, is there anything that could go on the building that’s more period that could buffer the units themselves, like some of the Victorian houses have a captain’s walk with a three-foot railing that can camoflage something behind that.  The other thing I thought of was brick.  You mentioned how the brick to the edge of the building would match the brick on the rest of the building.  Is there any way there could be something brick at the other end of the building that wouldn’t have a top on it.  Then the unit could be bigger, consolidated, instead of having four spread out, could we have one and have it buffered behind a more appropriate looking structure?
Kirk Mohney said, is that an option, to have one larger unit that services everything in a “penthouse” if you will?  
Brian Curley said, you mean put it inside a room, or a fenced enclosure?
Kirk Mohney said, enclosure, but it would have the appearance of a rooftop structure.
Brian Curley said, what if that thing is repeated over here on the end wall, and then you connect them with an open fence, so it’s open to the sky, and the units all sit within this yard, so at one end there’s a masonry wall, I could even make it symmetrical.  I was just thinking about all of that masonry all the way across.
Kirk Mohney said, I don’t know that I would go with something like that.  On certain buildings you might have a balustrade at the street front, but you wouldn’t have it across the center of the roof, unless it was a gable or something.
Brian Curley said, I was thinking more of a tight fence, just basically a visual screen.  Masonry masses on either side, and you’d have a fence all the way across to screen you from seeing the units.
Kirk Mohney said, so the units would be there as you’ve shown them, but you would have added a non-functional complementary brick visual buffer.  That’s not what I was suggesting.  What I was suggesting was a larger single unit that might be either by itself or enclosed in some fashion rather than four smaller ones scattered across the roof, possibly centrally located.  The concern I have about putting another one of these symmetrical over here is that this is a pretty prominent view of the side elevation and I think this is probably the better location to do that, but I wouldn’t necessarily want to see one of these between both sides.
Gail Ham said, but if these three could be in something singly, where would the single piece look best?  If these three pieces could be incorporated into something like this, and just that be present on that end?
Geri Robbins-Doyle said, but then you’re blocking that side view visually from Church Street.
Kirk Mohney said, what if it were somewhere else, if it were farther in?
Gail Ham said, that’s what I’m saying.  Because it’s so flat and because you’re looking down on it, where can it go best?
Clarence McKay said, if you went to a larger unit, you might run into a higher elevation, right?  If you had four of these units, and you just clamped them together, and they’d be like one unit.  To me, when you see the four of them stuck up there like that, it’s different than seeing one.
Brian Curley said, that’s another option, to physically have them all in the same curve, and they’d all be clustered together.
Kirk Mohney said, even though they’re smaller, it’s breaking up more of that open viewshed across to this other building that rises up above.
Brian Curley said, why don’t I work on location and placement.  We’re kind of shooting in the dark.  We need the engineering to be a little bit tighter and get really specific about what the building says it needs.  What if they were closer to the elevator, like clustered around the elevator?  When they’re in line you wouldn’t see them spread out, you’d see them clustered together.  Use the mass of the elevator.  
Kirk Mohney said, then you’d have more of the openness of the roof.
Geri Robbins-Doyle said, if you’re going back to the drawing board on this, could you also think about doing it in the brick or the reddish color?

Brian Curley said yes.  So, I’m going to work on unit placement, color, and proportions of the entry, those are the things.
Kirk Mohney said, the third thing was the tank location and if that leads to modifications to the little hip roof addition, then we should look at that.

David Cichowski said, is that blue building as historic as the brick one?
Kirk Mohney said, I would guess not, but I don’t know what its history is.
Brian Curley said, in my mind it’s in the district so it counts.  It’s clearly modern.
Kirk Mohney said, oh, it is modern.  The framing is all modern.
Brian Curley said, seventies or eighties.
Kirk Mohney said, oh, it’s that late.  And I wasn’t concerned about the form.  If you have to come back and modify its form in some fashion, because you’re putting an exterior tank or something, we just want to see what you’re doing on that.
Clarence McKay said, Brian, did you say this would be like a terrace with the tanks under it?
Brian Curley said, to the right of that, that’s what this whole business is about, that shrubbery and all that, there’s an opportunity, because those doors operate and there’s stairs going out of there, we can use that as an outdoor terrace.  The building itself, I need to either bury underground or deal with the gas tank itself and I need to put it somewhere on the site.

Clarence McKay said, we’re not ready for a motion.
Kirk Mohney said, it would be appropriate to table the application.  

Kirk Mohney made a motion to table with the request for this additional information.
Geri Robbins-Doyle seconded the motion.

Vote: 4 in favor.  0 opposed.  Motion passed.

Clarence McKay said, I told you I would try to find something on the MacDonald’s building.  I did.  I got together with Don.  His father was Don, also.  His father came from Nova Scotia and he got together with a fellow named Bill Sterns in Augusta, which was about eighty-five, eighty-six years ago in 1921.  The two of them wanted to go into the bakery business so they moved to Gardiner from Augusta.   Don’s father moved with Stern to Gardiner in 1921 and they opened at that building at that time.  Stern decided he wasn’t that interested in a partnership, so Don’s father bought his part out, but Stern stayed on and worked.  He didn’t want the headaches of being a businessman.  Don’s Father owned the place since 1923.  Young Don says “I’m the oldest businessman around.  When I was ten years old, my father would bring me down on the street, sweep the sidewalks, shovel snow, for the Glaciers, all that crowd, the Slossbergs, and whatever was there.”  When he got into high school, his father would have him do odd jobs.  You may remember Gowan, who had the hot dog stand?  They used to make the hot dog rolls and hamburger rolls for him in the bakery.  Don says, “My job was to wrap those damn things!”  Don graduated in 1941, he was in the Navy, he went in the Air Force.  He came home, went to school under the GI bill, went to college in Massachusetts, business type, went to Chicago, went to college there relative to the bakery business.  Then he came back, bought the business from his father in 1952, which is fifty-four years ago.  In 1957, he replaced that front.  What happened was, a man came up from Massachusetts, a fellow who went around and said, gee I can change your front, make it look a lot better.  He said, why don’t you sketch it out so I can see what it would look like.  So the fellow sat on the steps of the Post Office looking across and he sketched out what we see today.  However, see that the door originally was in the middle.  This guy says, you’re losing a lot of window space.  So he says we’ll move the door over to the left.  Don said that he loved what he had designed for him, but then when he went to find out what it was going to cost him, and this guy had somebody in Massachusetts who would come up and do all of the work, he said no way I could afford that.  So, there’s a fellow in town, Ralph Purdy.  He was a contractor back then.  So he came into the bakery one day and Don was telling him about it, and he said, I could put this whole thing together for a lot less money than that.  But he said, I’ve got a concern.  You know that stuff you’re talking about putting around front of it, I’m wondering if that’s going to fall apart once it gets wet and starts deteriorating.  So Don got him some materials and they soaked it in water, just left it in water soaking, quite an extended period they left it to make damn sure it wasn’t going to fall apart.  They found out it wasn’t after a period of time and they said, “okay, let’s go for it.”  So that sounds like they put that.
Kirk Mohney said, so it ended up being the Colorwall material.
Geri Robbins-Doyle said, so that was the color that was there?
Clarence McKay said, he said that they had other colors, I’m sure, but this was the color we chose.  It was put on in 1957.  They replaced the entire front.  Made the changes, moved the door.  
Kirk Mohney said, in ’57, was it in summer, or?
Clarence McKay said, I think he told me it was in October.  There’s a lot of people like that around.  These are his pictures.  
Kirk Mohney said, we’ve got to get a copy of that.
Clarence McKay said, look at the prices.  Thursday special: six donuts, one loaf of bread, six jelly donuts.  Twenty-Five cents!  You go in that bakery today.  You’ve seen the signs that are on the walls.  Well, there they are right there.  They took them off.  Don said one of his children has got one of them, and the other is supposed to go to his daughter.  For eighty-five years, it has been MacDonald’s.  People come from all over.  For them to give that name up.  They could still have their own name.  I think they are losing a piece of promotion for themselves.   
Geri Robbins-Doyle said, I was disappointed when I heard they were not going to keep the name “MacDonald’s.”
Geri Robbins-Doyle left.
Clarence McKay said, to this side was Stan Allen’s wallpaper and paint shop, and the other side was Harriman Black.  Ultimately Harriman Black left there and they went up to a building the other side of Key Bank, which they tore that down when they set that whole thing in motion.  And then there was a First National Store went in there.
GailHam said, if this company wants to make front changes and have a new image, it’s nice to have this because they could go back to this.
Kirk Mohney said, the first question is, about the front that’s there now.  We have different opinions about that.
Gail Ham said, I was looking at it and the quality of what’s left of it is pretty bad.  It’s pretty badly deteriorated.  If they’re going to change the name, and take off the bakers and things up on top, it’s going to be really pretty bad.
Kirk Mohney said, Dave was mentioning at the last meeting, it’s all of a piece.  This is terrific documentation.  It’s a question that may come to us.
David Cichowski said, I’ve met with them several times.  Three or four times, been to the bakery and did a walk-through of all three floors.  They were talking more about fire safety and egress and things like that.
Clarence McKay said, Don and I were talking about there was a fellow in town connected with the City, a lawyer that lived up on Brunswick Avenue, Frank Chapman.  He was all for Urban Renewal.  That’s when urban renewal was hot all over the countryside, and long before historic preservation came into being.  His idea was to tear down one side of the street, eliminate all the buildings, put it all into parking.  Don said, “I fought that hammer and tongs to not let them do that.”  And I said, thank god you did.  Look what they did in Waterville.  It’s shameful what they did up there.  And they were doing it everywhere.  I can recall going with Governor Cross out to Washington State for a hundredth anniversary of Pope & Talbot who were originally in the lumber business in Maine and shipbuilding.  They left Maine, went down around the tip of South America, up the other side of the coast, and landed in Oregon and set up a lumber and shipbuilding business.  Practically picked a whole town up, put it aboard ship, and lugged it out there, and when we were out there, you would  have sworn you had stepped into a piece of Maine.  We stayed at the Olympia Hotel out there.  Just about the time urban renewal was really flowing, everybody was into the act, they were going to tear that place down.  Somebody stepped on somebody’s toes, and said, “you’re not going to do that.”  That is when, I understand, historic preservation came into being on a national level.
Gail Ham said, my point, Kirk, was that in the event they wanted to change to an earlier period, for us to have the pictures.
Kirk Mohney said, I would speculate you would have a hard time getting them back to this center entrance.  This is great documentation.
Gail Ham said, do we need to do anything to follow up with Black Diamond?
Kirk Mohney said, we do.  I said I would draft a letter for Clarence, and I never did.  I agree we need to follow up on that.  

6.)     Adjourn
        Gail Ham made a motion to adjourn.  Clarence McKay seconded the motion.    
        Vote:  3 in favor. 0 opposed. Motion passed.
Meeting adjourned.

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